SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this episode, I'm going to talk to you about how I got a job right out of law school at a big law firm in private practice. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Law School Decoded, the podcast that pulls back the curtain on what it's really like to succeed in law school. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

So, all I'm going to do in this episode is tell you a story, and that is the story of how I found my way to my first law school job right out of graduation, which was a job in private law practice, which is what I wanted. And I'm going to tell you that story because I think it has a ton of lessons about how you, as a law student, can pursue the career that is right for you, how you can pursue a private practice job and potentially others this could be applicable to. There are mistakes that I made. There are things that I learned. We're going to go over what those were in this podcast episode. The first thing to know is that I went to law school without really having an idea of why I wanted to be a lawyer. I knew some people who were lawyers. I thought the work was intriguing. I like talking. I like writing. I like analyzing issues and coming up with creative positions. So I thought that lawyers did that kind of work and that I would enjoy it. And I wasn't wrong. I do that day to day. But what I didn't do before law school and probably should have was learn about different legal practice areas and what kind of lawyers I might want to be. Not necessarily exactly the kind of lawyer I want to be. Some people go to law school knowing I want to do plaintiff's personal injury or I want to do intellectual property law. If you know that, that's really great because you can target those areas. But for me, I was much more uncertain about what type of law I wanted to do. I didn't even really know about all the different types that are out there. I still occasionally learn about new ones. There are lots, but certainly the bigger ones I should have been aware of and I should have had an idea of what I wanted to do with my law degree. But I knew I wanted to work at a private practice law firm. So my first year, I went through and didn't really have a sense of what I should be looking for in my first summer job. And I ended up finding one in a government role as an intern. And I found that job using some very distant personal connections. I asked around family members and friends, hey, who can I talk to who's a lawyer who might be able to help me out? Eventually, I found one who connected me to a really prominent law firm in the city where I wanted to practice. That's great, right? I can talk to this person. I can go get a job at a private law firm after my first summer. That's going to be phenomenal. Well, I went and talked to that person. And what I learned was they had no job for me at all. They had no job for me at all. And what I learned was that there are very few private practice law firm jobs at big law firms or otherwise that were available to me in that first year summer. And I think in most application cycles, that's the case. Most of the time, when you are looking for your 1L summer job, your summer job after 1L before going into 2L, you are going to find that very few firms are hiring those 1Ls for those jobs in that particular summer. There are some. And there are some periods of time when firms might be more aggressive about getting people early into their firms and connected to what their firms have to offer. So it all depends. And you should go for those firms. You should start networking with them, getting to know their lawyers if you might want to work there, and learning about what they might be offering or not. But in any event, your number one goal for your first summer should be to get any kind of legal job. If you want to work in private practice, you should just try to find anything for your one L summer that is legal in nature. It really doesn't matter what it is. You could be working for a government agency. You could be working for a prosecutor's office. You could be working for a nonprofit. You could be working for a professor helping them with research. You could be working for one of your school's law clinics if they offer that. Whatever it is, all you want is to find some opportunity to do some kind of legal work of any nature at all. The fact is that your one L summer job is unlikely to be the job that directly propels you to your role after graduation. As I said, there are very few private practice jobs available. So I approached this attorney at a private practice firm who I managed to connect with, got to know about his practice a little bit. I didn't think it was necessarily what I wanted to do after learning a bit about it, but super interesting. And after learning about it, I asked, well, does your firm have anything for the summer? And he said, no, or at least not for you. If they did have something, it was going to be something reserved for exceptional law students with exceptional undergraduate grades, maybe who perform exceptionally in their first semester, and that was not me. So I was not going to get that one or two spots at this particular firm. So I didn't have an opportunity there, but I asked, well, is there anywhere else I might look? And he said, Hey, I do have a relative who works at a government agency. Maybe you can go talk to them. And so I went and talked to that person. And lo and behold, that person said, Well, sure, we do summer interns here. There are unpaid internships, and you will get litigation experience that this government agency does. So if you want to learn about litigation in this particular city, this is a good place to be. And I was like, that is great. This was a perfect first opportunity for me because it fulfilled the goal I just told you about. Do any kind of legal work in your first summer. Do any kind of legal work. Now, let's say you're listening to this podcast and you were like, man, you are out of touch, podcaster. Like, I don't have any personal connections like you to get me to that job. Well, remember, that first personal connection didn't get me any job either. It was when I kept asking, what else is out there? Who else might be able to help me who you're aware of and might be comfortable introducing me to? And he said, Oh, I I know this relative of mine does is a lawyer and has, you know, potentially some kind of summer opportunities at this government agency. So go talk to them. I never went through a formal application process, wasn't sending out cold cover letters to people who didn't know me at all. But you might say, Andrew, I have no idea how to find those connections. I'm gonna do a whole separate podcast episode on that. But you can. Anyone can. Lots of people out there will be willing to talk to you if you have attenuated connections to them. Maybe you went to the same college, maybe you went to the same law school, or maybe you just cold send them a LinkedIn message that's two sentences. It says, Hey, I'm interested in what you do professionally and learning how you got there. Could we meet? Some of my most important connections professionally, I met doing that, sending that LinkedIn message because I had a genuine interest in what they did. They saw that when I met them, it wasn't a waste of their time. I wasn't just trying to get a job or anything like that. I was actually trying to connect and move my professional life forward. They were flattered by that. They were glad to tell me more about what they did, and it helped me immensely in that search process. So that's my first summer. I got that job. It was unpaid. You know, it wasn't a very formal program. I think I worked in like the office library or break room sometimes on a little laptop and did legal research, wrote little memos. I got to go see trials, I got to go see things argued in court pretty frequently. So I dipped my toe into things. I started understanding what the process looked like. After that, I had to find a job for my second summer. And I applied to roles. And this time I didn't successfully use networking to find my second summer job. And that was a huge mistake because I was just spamming everybody. I was applying to every role through the on-campus interview or OCI process. I was sending firms letters in the mail. This was way back when. Maybe people don't do letters now, but I was sending letters in the mail. I was sending emails trying to get the attention of law firm recruiters. None of it was strategic. None of it was targeted. None of it was tailored to what I actually wanted to do as a lawyer. It was really just, hey, I'm interested in being a lawyer. I'm think I'm smart. I've got pretty good grades. Can we talk? Because I want to maybe work at your law firm. And I was not getting anything good back. Eventually, there was a local firm that I got in touch with and they did have a law clerk opportunity for the next summer. And so I took it. But it took me forever. I mean, that took me months. I think I was definitely in my second semester of my second year when I got that call. I struck out at OCI. I did get some interviews because I had good grades. I was on law review. But when I sat down with those firms, I didn't have any genuine connection to them. I didn't have any way to look at them in the eye and say, this is what I know about your firm, and this is why I want to work there. I didn't know how they were chambers ranked. I didn't know what their strong and large practice groups were. I didn't know whether they did big litigation and only a few cases or small litigation. I didn't know what they specialized in mostly, right? A lot of these firms will advertise that they do everything, but some practice groups are more central to the firm than others. So I didn't really have a why. I didn't have a good answer to why am I sitting here and why do I want to work there? Do I have any connections there? Have I done anything to try to build some kind of connection with the firm? I had none of it. And so I was not a good applicant to these firms, even though my grades were in place because I hadn't networked right. I hadn't networked strategically to get to where I wanted to be. So my second summer job, I found a job at a small firm doing a practice that I did not want to do after graduation. I knew that. But the job paid a little bit of money. And so I was doing legal work again. I was in court. I was learning about court filings. I was doing legal research. I was learning about what paralegals did. It was useful in that sense. And I'm so grateful that that firm took me on. That firm kept me on during my third year, which was great. I connected really well with the attorneys. We got along really, really well. And so I stayed in touch with them and kept on as a law clerk. Meanwhile, though, I'm still looking for jobs. And I'm at least now finding out about things that I don't want to do. I'm finding out I don't want to do this particular practice area. And so I start figuring out, gosh, I need to hone in on a practice area that I like because I've clearly found some now where I've talked to the lawyers or I see what they do, and I'm like, I don't, I don't think I'd enjoy doing depositions on that topic. I don't think that I would enjoy doing trials on that particular topic. So if I had my choice, I'd prefer to be doing something else. I started honing in on a practice area and was like, okay, wait a minute. I really like this particular one. And there are some related practice areas that I can say, you know what, I think I'd like those too because I think it's similar in how you go about your day-to-day work. And I think that's day-to-day work that I would enjoy doing. It was a practice area where I'd get to write, I'd get to do a lot of research, I'd get to be persuasive on paper, I'd get to talk to clients a lot really, really early and witnesses and get a reasonable amount of courtroom experience. Not too much. I wasn't going to be in court every single day. But to me, the volume of times that these attorneys seemed to be in court was interesting. And the amount of times that they seemed to go to trial was intriguing. The issues that they dealt with were ones that I was fascinated by. And so I was like, okay, I found a practice area. That was key. And by the way, this was a litigation-based practice area. That was a decision I should have made way earlier. Do I want to be a litigator or do I want to do transactional non-litigation work? I should have made that decision way earlier. It was a mistake not to, because those are two totally different lives. The lives of a litigator versus a transactional lawyer are very, very different. And the fact that I didn't know which one I wanted to do between those two options really reflected how naive I was being. And the fact that I didn't know meant that when I was going out and searching for jobs, I wasn't being strategic at all. I wasn't trying to find something that I actually wanted to do. And when I was talking to these law firms and trying to answer questions about what I wanted to practice and why and whether I would be a good fit for the strengths of that firm and what they practiced, I didn't have any good answers for them. So going through that process was painstaking. And I probably interviewed absolutely horrendously in those interviews. I'm embarrassed to think about it now, thinking that those lawyers interviewed me and some of the poor answers that I had. So my third year, I'm starting to figure this out. I'm saying, okay, I want to do this practice area. And I also started to figure out where I wanted to be. Before, I hadn't really figured out what area of the country that I wanted to be in. So I was applying to jobs everywhere, every sort of market where I thought, yeah, I could see myself ending up there if somebody would offer me a job. I don't care. I'm not tied down. But as I thought about it, I was like, wait a minute, I actually have some preferences based on where my connections are, based on where I want to put down roots. So I'm going to focus on jobs, maybe in these one or two markets. Okay. It was a big mistake not to do that earlier because again, I wasn't creating a job search that was tailored to me. So now I've got a practice area and I've got a location. When I had those two things, suddenly I went from being someone who was competing against thousands of other students for jobs to someone who was pursuing a career in a specific area. And I was one of very few people who wanted to get their foot in that particular door. As a result, suddenly I was in an applicant pool of one or very few who were interested in what I was looking for. I was no longer competing with every other student who was just throwing their resumes into OCI, spamming law firms that everybody knows. No, I was someone who was targeting my search in a meaningful way, in a way that would mean that I wasn't competing with as many students, and that I was finding a job that would actually be a good fit for me and to which I should really be hired. I also started to position my law school career towards that job. I took every single class my law school offered that would let me say on my resume, hey, I've done it, y'all. I've taken every single class in this area and I'd put that on my resume, and they see it, and that makes me look different. When they're looking at 10 resumes, if I'm the one that says, hey, I'm actually interested in this area, and I've done everything I can in law school to show you that and to know as much as I can. That is a meaningful step towards a career in that area. So I did that. I started taking those classes. The other thing that I did is I was on law review. I picked a law review note that would be on that particular area. And actually, it it absolutely terrified my notes editor, who was responsible for me getting that note done. But like I was figuring all this out in my third year that I wanted to do this particular area of law. And so I like I had been working on a different note on something else all semester. I don't remember what it was about, even, but like two weeks before my note was due, I totally scrapped it. And I scrambled and I wrote a note on a completely new topic that probably terrified my law review notes editor, but actually it was a really good note and it even got published because it was something I was now passionate about and learning about. I was also spending time outside of class learning about that particular area of law. I was going to law firms and their websites for law firms who do that area, and I was signing up for their newsletters. I was learning about the things that they publish about. I was learning about specialties within that area of law so that when I talked to lawyers about it, I could be intelligent. I could know what kind of what's going on and start to understand what they're dealing with and doing day to day. And so in that sense, I was starting to make myself a better, more knowledgeable applicant. I was also really getting to know my professors just for that particular area. Even professors who classes I weren't taking, but also taught in that area, I would just get to know them a little bit too. But I was going to those professors and saying, hey, I'm not going to every professor and saying this. I am telling you, I am interested in this area of law. To the extent you might be able to support me in that endeavor, I'd really appreciate it. That was a big thing I should have been done doing or strict strategizing about way earlier, but I didn't. And that was a failure. But that's okay. It's going to become important in a minute. So the most important thing I start to do to actually find a job as I start targeting this career is that I made a spreadsheet of all the firms in town that seem to have a practice doing that. And then looking on those firm websites, I started identifying in that spreadsheet who are the people who I think I should meet at those firms? Who are the people I might reach out to to say, hey, I don't have much of a connection to you, but I'd really love to do what you do. And here's, you know, why I think you should talk to me over coffee for 20 minutes or jump on a call for 15 minutes or jump on a Zoom call these days. So I was, I was making that list in a spreadsheet. And then on their firm profiles or LinkedIn, I was trying to identify what connections we might have. We might go to the same law school or might have gone to the same college, or maybe we have a mutual connection and I can reach out to them. So I start identifying what are the big firms doing this. I looked at Chambers, which publishes like who are the firms that are big in your town doing certain things. And I saw which firms were ranked. So that means that they had a robust practice area in that area that they were advertising to the world. So those were firms I knew I should target because they clearly had people doing this. That means they're going to build on that business, hopefully, and need to have more people like me coming up and doing it. So I start building that list and I start trying to meet people at each firm and making friends with them. I meet people who are partners, I meet people who are associates. I'll tell you, meet whoever will talk to you. But in many instances, it can be most valuable, in my view, to network with people who are in the exact spot that you want to have. So, like a first through third year associate, if you're in law school, you might think, oh, I want to meet the managing partner, the hiring partner. That can be helpful too. And I did that, and it did help me. But one thing that was really helpful was meeting with like those first through third years because they understand what you're going through. They understand what the market is like because they just went through it. And you can ask them, hey, I want to be where you are. How did you get there? How do I get to your seat? And by the way, as you're moving your way up, don't forget about me. Maybe you could pull me into that seat that you're in somehow. Maybe you could mention to people that I am passionate about this. And so I was starting to meet with those people. I met with one person like that. I had absolutely no connection to him. And I was like, hey, I'm interested in what you do. And he was like, oh, great. Well, it's good timing. We are just about to interview for a post-3L job. Why don't you come in and uh I'll get you an interview? And so he did. And I interviewed at his small firm. And guess what? I didn't get it. It was a huge bummer. But I I thanked him. I said I'd love to keep in touch. If future opportunities come up, maybe we can chat. Okay, great. So I'm still moving on. I found my way to another law firm. And I knew that they did what I wanted to do, and they seemed to be the top practice area in town that did it. So it's like, okay, great. They're a great one for me to network with. So I got connected with a partner at that law firm. I didn't know him, but he did go to my law school. So when I reached out, I mentioned that. And also, it turns out I had a a distant family member who was a lawyer. Every now and then I'd check in with him and I was like, hey, do you do you happen to know this person? And he did. It Turned out, as I saw, that they had practiced together at the same firm decades before. So it's like, hey, if you don't mind me dropping your name, or maybe you might shoot him a text or send him an email saying, hey, Andrew is interested in this, he might reach out. That might help me get in with them. So again, that was a distant relative connection that did help me. And you might say, Andrew, I don't have that. But again, you're just going to rely on other strings. You're going to rely on the fact that you went to the same law school, same interests, whatever it is that you can see that is not creepy to mention. And if you have nothing else, all you say is, hey, I'm really interested in what you do. And you'll be surprised how many people are willing to talk to you if that interest is genuine and they sense that because they're going to want to help you. So I reached out to this partner. And this was an important partner at the firm, someone who was influential in the hiring process. He may have been in charge of the hiring process at the time. I can't remember. But I said, hey, I'm interested in what you do. I'd love to get a job with you guys. And I think I actually met him before my second year summer. So I was asking for a second-year summer job at that point. And of course he said, no, we have nothing for you. And look, chances are that's the answer you're going to get. When you meet these people, they only have jobs open for days or weeks before summer or after 3L. And so you need to just make the introduction, expect that you are not going to get anything out of it but a connection at that time. You're not going in there for a job. You're going in there for the connection and building it genuinely, making a friend, getting someone who is going to advocate for you and care about you and think that you are someone who is genuinely interested in what they do and passionate about it. So I made that connection with this person. He said, I don't have a job. I said, Hey, totally get it. If you don't mind, like if you if you if something happens to come up, would love to know. Otherwise, I'd just love to keep in touch, maybe let you what I'm know what I'm up to, maybe find excuses to reach out to you. We will do podcasts on that on this series. So I didn't get this 2L job, but as I was getting into my 3L and starting to figure out that his practice area was the one that I wanted to be in, every now and then I'd email again and just say, hey, I know some people are starting to think about hiring 3Ls for postgraduate jobs. I would love to be considered if you all have that kind of opportunity. I did that, I think, once or twice. And the second time, he just happened to pick up the phone and call me and say, hey, tell me kind of who you are again and what you're interested in, because we actually have an opening coming up now for a 3L law clerk and maybe a postgraduate job too. And I was like, oh my gosh, you've got to be kidding me. This could be amazing. I am so excited. So I talked to him on the phone, talked to him about how who I was again, reminded him, reminded him why I was interested in this particular area. And he said, okay, well, we're just getting ready to post this job, but why don't you come on in and interview? Why don't you come on in and meet the team? So I went into the office, I met everyone who was there, and eventually we got through that interview process. It was several hours. We talked about the substance of the law. So they understood it was an area that I had been learning about, that I'd been writing my law review note about. I told them I had taken all the classes I could, recognized, tab, I understand I'm not an expert in this yet. I don't really know how anything works. I'm just a law student, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can. Gave off that vibe that I was confident that I was doing everything I can to set myself up for a career without coming off as someone with a chip on my shoulder, without coming off as a know-it-all, without speaking about things that I didn't really understand. So I explained to them who I was, why I was interested. And the next day, I got a call that said, we are offering you a job right now as a 3L clerk, and we're going to go ahead and offer you one for after your 3L2. They didn't even wait. They went ahead and put both offers on the table. I was elated. I had spent two and a half years searching for a law job and I had finally found one. And I didn't find it because I sent great applications off to big law firms. I didn't find it because I knocked an interview out of the park at OCI and they picked me one out of 150 people who applied to sit for that interview and for that job. I got it because I built genuine connections. I approached those connections strategically. I kept in touch with them, and I had a genuine interest in what they did. I wasn't going to transactional firms and saying, hey, I want to do transactional, maybe. I don't really know what it is. Yeah, I just want to try it out. Let's see if, and if I don't like it, I'll go to litigation. Yikes, that's not going to get me anywhere. But having that genuine interest in that particular role got me a job because I made myself an applicant of one. So what were the things I messed up? And what were the things I did right? I messed up not knowing what I wanted to do, not honing in on certain practice areas, not trying to make genuine connections with people without a job in mind, but thinking about a long-term career and how to get there. I messed up by not keeping organized. I didn't have a spreadsheet in the beginning, right? I was just kind of blindly going after jobs without thinking about how to strategically pursue the career that was right for me. What did I do right? Well, as I learned more about the law, I started honing in on a career path that was specific. And I started tailoring my resume to that career, both literally and figuratively. Literally, I was writing a new resume for those jobs in that area. But I was also taking all the law classes that I could, doing all the law activities that I could. I kind of pursued that a little bit. I can talk about that in other episodes, but like certain, you know, moot court stuff, you know, I started getting involved in because it was going to be relevant to what I was doing, that I should have done more of, frankly. I did a law review article on the subject I was interested in. So I could talk about that in my interviews, which I did. I read and subscribed to all the law firm articles that I could to start learning about what they do. And eventually it paid off. And by the way, when I was interviewing for that one job that I really, really, really wanted and got, I also informed the law professor who I had built a connection with and said, Hey, like I've told you I want to do this. And just by the way, I don't know if you know anyone at that firm, but I'm really interested in them. And so if you do, I would love it if you don't mind reaching out to them. And she said, I don't know anyone, but I don't mind sending you a cold email to their managing partner. Oh, I was so touched. Now, if I had just gone up to her and said, Hey, I don't, you know, you don't know me, but I'm in your class. I sit in the back. We've never talked, but I really want this job. Can you go out on a limb for me? She probably would have been like, What? But I'd built a genuine connection. I'd been a nice human being. I'd been normal in class, hadn't been a gunner or anything like that. I did really well in her classes. But, you know, she did this because of who I was and how I was just being a genuine person, I think, about my interest in that area. And she knew that. So she knew it was safe to go to bat for me, that her reputation wouldn't be impugned, hopefully, by what would come next when I actually got a job. I've kind of forgot about that till now, but she totally went to bat for me. She sent that email. And that's probably one of the other things that made this law firm say, let's go ahead and offer this person a job without even posting the position. I didn't even compete against anyone. It was an incredible opportunity, and it's an incredible story about what succeeds in job searching versus what does not succeed. And so I hope you've learned a little bit in listening to this story about what works and what doesn't. And as you think about your job search, I hope you will think about how you can do the things that are most productive because you can do a lot of wheel spinning in your job search. You can waste a lot of time doing things that are unproductive and don't actually get you towards a job, and that are actually pretty unenjoyable drudgery. So I want you to focus on the things that matter. I want you to do the school activities that matter for the job that you want. I want you to connect with the people who can get you to the job that you want. I want you to connect with people who are in the job you want so they can pull you up. By the way, remember that that associate who got me an interview at a place that I didn't get? Well, it turns out we ended up working together at the same firm for a while. He went in-house, I kept in touch, and then guess what? When he got promoted in-house, I took his job. I I got in at that place, I wanted to work there, and he, of course, knew me. And so I kind of rode his coattails into that role. So knowing that associate helped me years later to pursue the career that was right for me. You can do that same thing. So I hope this story was helpful to you. I don't tell it to you because I'm I'm some phenomenal lawyer or you know, a Supreme Court clerk or anything prestigious like that. I'm just a run-of-the-mill attorney. And my story is very typical of many. But if you're a new law student, if you're a first gen student, this isn't stuff that you know. You haven't heard people talk about this part of their journey. And so I wanted to give a detailed rundown of it so you can think to yourself, oh my gosh, am I doing the right productive things to search for a job? Do I know what kind of job that I want? How do I figure that out? How do I narrow my job search so I become an applicant of one like that podcaster did? I want that for you as well, rather than focusing on the unproductive things, which often can be very stressful and unsuccessful in your job search. Sometimes they will. You should still cold apply to places where you want to work. But it's better to set yourself up for success and to do everything you can to guarantee your success. Networking your way there will help. So I'm going to do lots of other podcast episodes about your job search, how to start it right when you enter law school, how to set yourself up for success, and the steps that I want you to take in order to be the only applicant who should be hired for a job, the really obvious one at the top of the pile. I have reviewed resumes for applicants to positions as lawyers. There usually are just a few applicants who are really good, and the rest of them are not obvious picks. I want to teach you how to be that applicant at the top of the pile because that's what I did eventually. That's definitely not what I did at the beginning, and it was super stressful and I wasted a ton of time. But that's what I eventually did. That's what eventually got me not only to a successful first job, but to several jobs after that. And my friends who followed the same strategy, it worked for them too. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast. And I hope it wasn't this story, even though I'm not the most remarkable, careered, storied lawyer in the world. I hope that this very typical story of a job search was helpful to you. Thank you so much for listening. I wish you the very best in your job search and can't wait to keep talking about it in other podcast episodes. We will see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

That's it for today's episode of Law School Decoded. Visit us online at Lawschooldecoded.com and make sure to subscribe. Until next time, keep decoding the law, one step at a time.